For density check out tungsten. Almost identical. Tungsten encased by a layer of gold is a real problem. Economically practical for even 1oz bars and rounds. Made headlines about a dozen years ago and continues to this day.
Gold (Au) has a specific gravity of 19.32. Tungsten (W) has a specific gravity of 19.22. Lead (Pb) s 11.35 or about 59% as heavy as gold. However, tungsten costs about 62% as much as gold and 23 times as much as lead or almost 5 times as much as copper if I'm reading the spot prices correctly. Like you said tho, nothing looks like gold but gold. wildbill
Tungsten fakes were / are serious, but can be detected by various means including a 'ring test' which is performed by supporting the coin or small bar on a finger tip and strking it with a plastic pen or similar object. The coin or bar will ring at its fundamental frequency (plus some multiples of it). This ringing frequency can be discerned by a trained ear or various smartphone apps. Anything not pure gold or silver can be detected by this method, especially if combined with other metods of spotting fakes (weight, appearance, dimensions, specific gravity, bulk conductivity...)
This really happened. A guy, a jeweller, IIRC, bought a gold bar at a bank in Toronto, Ontario. Took it back to his shop, and, I guess, started cutting it up prior to use. The center of said bar was tungsten, with a real gold coating, plausible markings (refiner's name and serial).
Called foul on the bank, who was/were going to stonewall, until he threatened mucho publicity.
Tungsten coated gold is close enough to fool the non-expert.
Read about this in a precious metals forum, and it did get into the local biz newspaper. Final comment was, Chase or J.P. Morgan ( can't remember) was/is a BIG buyer of metallic tungsten.
I would argue that you’d be better off with guns and ammunition. Gold has zero value in a shtf situation. You can’t eat it, you can’t hunt with it and it is nothing but pretty in that case.
Or Dead. It's not a video game where you can hit reset and try again.
Dutch courage was having guns and booze. Sometimes intelligence and sneakiness are far better than forcing a checkpoint with 26K worth of guns and bullets.
In 3rd world countries working as a medic, I've had to "give up my only wedding ring" for a police "escort" to the hospital for my ambulance.
I used to pack bags of cheap 10 carat wedding rings for that reason. WHY? If you offer a gold coin, they FIGURE you have MORE.
But seldom did they shake us down over the last wedding ring.
Anon at 8:09 - RIght at first, you're probably right, but trade and commerce will resume and gold has been a standard for that for thousands and thousands of years. Unless you can grow every single thing you're going to eat and cotton for your own clothes, as well as raising livestock, you're going to need something of value as trading material and you're going to need something compact, easy transportable and easily concealed. And once again, I'm wondering how this conversation managed to turn into SHTF scenarios. As another commenter mentioned a couple weeks ago, gold is a hedge against inflation.
A few years back, the British (I think it was) wanted to get their gold back. They had shipped it here during WW2 in case the Germans invaded. There was some kind of commotion when we said we couldn't ship it back immediately. What ever happened to that conspiracy theory? And by the way, has anybody actually opened the vault door at Fort Knox lately and taken a look at the pile?
It wasn't quite like that. Operation Fish moved the gold reserves of Britain to the Sun Life Building in Montreal, Canada not Fort Knox. British warships brought gold to New York as payment for the war goods the British Purchasing Commission was buying before the Lend Lease Act and as collateral after the Lend Lease Act was passed. Al_in_Ottawa
Anon at 7:06am -- Sorry; you can't! Google is your friend (in this case). A garden variety ohm meter won't cut the mustard on a gold clad bar. You'll need a lab grade micro-ohm meter pushing tens of amps. And a very good calibration standard. i.e a known good bar or round of the the exact same size. They make specialized $$$ testers based on this. Currently ultrasonic testing is the easiest / cheapest non destructive test. Another way is by eddy current testing with a $$$ specialized meter.
If you have 3 identical sized bricks one of gold one of steel and one of lead, the steel and lead bricks weight together would be as heave as the single gold brick.
Roger that. 1964 and earlier US coinage (except the nickel) is universally useful. It being 90% silver, makes it easy to figure out its value based on current spot rate. Hauling several pounds would be an issue. Right now, 10:35am, 2 pounds of coins is about $900. Gold in tenths of an ounce would seem to be very useful trading stock.
That's what I thought. If you had that gold bar and you really, really needed something that costs considerably less, what do you get for change? I'll stick with silver.
All the gold in Ft Knox was signed for by BG Groves, drawn into wire, wound into electromagnets, used at Oak Ridge to enrich uranium, then recast and brought back in 1945. Didn’t lose a bit.
Silver was used to make the wire for electromagnets at Oak Ridge. Copper was a critical war time material, and was in short supply. Gold isn't that good of an electrical conductor, silver is the best there is at room temperature.
Silver and gold are both very good conductors - better than copper. Aluminum is 4th. Gold is too soft, silver is brittle, oxidizes easily, and is more expensive than copper. Aluminum has its own problems.
Re silver as money. Gold is sexier but silver better for small purchases. How much is that loaf of bread when you only carry 1oz (or even 1/10th oz) gold coins? pre-64 US coins is probably the best to have on hand; gold only for large purchases (How much is that AR15?)
Silver is the best conductor, then copper at 95% the conductivity of silver, then gold at 72% of silver, followed by aluminum at 60% of silver (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/conductors-d_1381.html). Silver can easily be drawn into wire, as that is how silver chains for jewelry are made. It isn't commercially viable to make electrical conductors out of silver because of the cost, but it was done for Oak Ridge during WW2 because copper was in short supply, and the silver bars were loaned from the treasury, so the government only had to pay for the wire drawing. At the time, it was easier to get for the Manhattan project than it was to get the necessary copper.
I can get something that is nonmagnetic, looks and feels exactly like that gold bar, on wish for like $5
ReplyDeleteI have thought about getting a few to put in my bugout gear as "please let me through this checkpoint" free passes.
No you can't. Nothing has the weight of gold for its mass except for gold. Even the look of pure gold is unique.
DeleteFor density check out tungsten. Almost identical. Tungsten encased by a layer of gold is a real problem. Economically practical for even 1oz bars and rounds. Made headlines about a dozen years ago and continues to this day.
DeleteGold (Au) has a specific gravity of 19.32. Tungsten (W) has a specific gravity of 19.22. Lead (Pb) s 11.35 or about 59% as heavy as gold. However, tungsten costs about 62% as much as gold and 23 times as much as lead or almost 5 times as much as copper if I'm reading the spot prices correctly. Like you said tho, nothing looks like gold but gold.
Deletewildbill
Tungsten used to be cheaper. About 10 years ago it was found one of China's private gold reserves was mostly gold covered tungsten.
DeleteExile1981
Tungsten fakes were / are serious, but can be detected by various means including a 'ring test' which is performed by supporting the coin or small bar on a finger tip and strking it with a plastic pen or similar object. The coin or bar will ring at its fundamental frequency (plus some multiples of it). This ringing frequency can be discerned by a trained ear or various smartphone apps. Anything not pure gold or silver can be detected by this method, especially if combined with other metods of spotting fakes (weight, appearance, dimensions, specific gravity, bulk conductivity...)
DeleteThis really happened. A guy, a jeweller, IIRC, bought a gold bar at a bank in Toronto, Ontario. Took it back to his shop, and, I guess, started cutting it up prior to use. The center of said bar was tungsten, with a real gold coating, plausible markings (refiner's name and serial).
DeleteCalled foul on the bank, who was/were going to stonewall, until he threatened mucho publicity.
Tungsten coated gold is close enough to fool the non-expert.
Read about this in a precious metals forum, and it did get into the local biz newspaper. Final comment was, Chase or J.P. Morgan ( can't remember) was/is a BIG buyer of metallic tungsten.
Audit Ft Knox!
Think of gold as twice as heavy as lead.
ReplyDeleteThat gold is worth around &26,400. If you have that amount in guns and ammunition, you WILL get through a checkpoint.
ReplyDeleteI would argue that you’d be better off with guns and ammunition. Gold has zero value in a shtf situation. You can’t eat it, you can’t hunt with it and it is nothing but pretty in that case.
DeleteOr Dead. It's not a video game where you can hit reset and try again.
DeleteDutch courage was having guns and booze. Sometimes intelligence and sneakiness are far better than forcing a checkpoint with 26K worth of guns and bullets.
In 3rd world countries working as a medic, I've had to "give up my only wedding ring" for a police "escort" to the hospital for my ambulance.
I used to pack bags of cheap 10 carat wedding rings for that reason. WHY? If you offer a gold coin, they FIGURE you have MORE.
But seldom did they shake us down over the last wedding ring.
Anon at 8:09 - RIght at first, you're probably right, but trade and commerce will resume and gold has been a standard for that for thousands and thousands of years. Unless you can grow every single thing you're going to eat and cotton for your own clothes, as well as raising livestock, you're going to need something of value as trading material and you're going to need something compact, easy transportable and easily concealed.
DeleteAnd once again, I'm wondering how this conversation managed to turn into SHTF scenarios. As another commenter mentioned a couple weeks ago, gold is a hedge against inflation.
Electrical conductivity / resistance of gold and tungsten are sufficiently different that counterfeits can be sorted out with a common volt/ohm meter.
ReplyDeleteDo you keep an ohmmeter in your pocket friend?
DeleteI love it when you talk nerdy.
DeleteA good volt meter has saved my ass in so many different situations that I have always carried one since I was was about 20.
DeleteA few years back, the British (I think it was) wanted to get their gold back. They had shipped it here during WW2 in case the Germans invaded. There was some kind of commotion when we said we couldn't ship it back immediately. What ever happened to that conspiracy theory? And by the way, has anybody actually opened the vault door at Fort Knox lately and taken a look at the pile?
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't quite like that. Operation Fish moved the gold reserves of Britain to the Sun Life Building in Montreal, Canada not Fort Knox. British warships brought gold to New York as payment for the war goods the British Purchasing Commission was buying before the Lend Lease Act and as collateral after the Lend Lease Act was passed.
DeleteAl_in_Ottawa
Anon at 7:06am -- Sorry; you can't! Google is your friend (in this case). A garden variety ohm meter won't cut the mustard on a gold clad bar. You'll need a lab grade micro-ohm meter pushing tens of amps. And a very good calibration standard. i.e a known good bar or round of the the exact same size. They make specialized $$$ testers based on this.
ReplyDeleteCurrently ultrasonic testing is the easiest / cheapest non destructive test. Another way is by eddy current testing with a $$$ specialized meter.
If you use B scan on a UT meter you'll see the interface between the layers. Speed of sound through tungsten is twice of the rate in gold
DeleteExile1981
If you have 3 identical sized bricks one of gold one of steel and one of lead, the steel and lead bricks weight together would be as heave as the single gold brick.
ReplyDeleteSilver….about $32 /ounce….
ReplyDeletemight be a better barter material.
Ed357
Ding ding ding.
DeleteRoger that. 1964 and earlier US coinage (except the nickel) is universally useful. It being 90% silver, makes it easy to figure out its value based on current spot rate. Hauling several pounds would be an issue. Right now, 10:35am, 2 pounds of coins is about $900.
DeleteGold in tenths of an ounce would seem to be very useful trading stock.
That's what I thought. If you had that gold bar and you really, really needed something that costs considerably less, what do you get for change? I'll stick with silver.
DeleteIf you had a ton, 2000 imperial pounds of gold, and you made it into a sphere, how big would it be?
ReplyDelete17-5/8" in diameter.
Remember that scene in the movie where they're hauling around large duffel bags full of gold bars? You can't actually do that.
Yep, the standard "Good Delivery" gold bar is 400 oz, or a bit over 27 pounds. I've even held one at Fort Knox (the mine, not the base).
DeleteAll the gold in Ft Knox was signed for by BG Groves, drawn into wire, wound into electromagnets, used at Oak Ridge to enrich uranium, then recast and brought back in 1945. Didn’t lose a bit.
ReplyDeleteThe uranium we exported to Japan….
Silver was used to make the wire for electromagnets at Oak Ridge. Copper was a critical war time material, and was in short supply. Gold isn't that good of an electrical conductor, silver is the best there is at room temperature.
DeleteSilver and gold are both very good conductors - better than copper. Aluminum is 4th. Gold is too soft, silver is brittle, oxidizes easily, and is more expensive than copper. Aluminum has its own problems.
DeleteRe silver as money. Gold is sexier but silver better for small purchases. How much is that loaf of bread when you only carry 1oz (or even 1/10th oz) gold coins? pre-64 US coins is probably the best to have on hand; gold only for large purchases (How much is that AR15?)
Silver is the best conductor, then copper at 95% the conductivity of silver, then gold at 72% of silver, followed by aluminum at 60% of silver (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/conductors-d_1381.html). Silver can easily be drawn into wire, as that is how silver chains for jewelry are made. It isn't commercially viable to make electrical conductors out of silver because of the cost, but it was done for Oak Ridge during WW2 because copper was in short supply, and the silver bars were loaned from the treasury, so the government only had to pay for the wire drawing. At the time, it was easier to get for the Manhattan project than it was to get the necessary copper.
DeleteYour second paragraph - exactly right.
ReplyDelete