Saturday, August 25, 2012

To Serve and..... shoot innocent folks

NEW YORK (AP) — All nine people injured during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were wounded by gunfire from the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence.
The veteran patrolmen who opened fire on the suit-clad gunman, Jeffrey Johnson, had only an instant to react when he whirled around and pointed a .45-caliber pistol at them as they approached him from behind on a busy sidewalk.
Officer Craig Matthews shot seven times, and Officer Robert Sinishtaj fired nine times, police said. Neither had ever fired their weapons before on a patrol.
The volley of gunfire felled Johnson in just a few seconds and left nine other people bleeding on the sidewalk.
In the initial chaos Friday, it wasn't clear whether Johnson or the officers were responsible for the trail of the wounded, but based on ballistic and other evidence, "it appears that all nine of the victims were struck either by fragments or by bullets fired by police," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly told reporters Saturday at a community event in Harlem.

What a bunch of fucking idiots. Fifty years ago the guy would have been taken down with 1 or 2 shots from a beat cops' trusty Colt 38 and that would've been the end of the story.
Now you've evidently got a firearms training program that encourages the time proven 'Spray-n-Pray' technique and a POS PC mayor and Chief of Police that are undoubtedly going to give out some serious commendations to the two idiots shooting innocent bystanders.


angrymike said...

Looks like the tax payers of NYC are gonna have a hefty bill when the law suits are said and done......
Thank you Bloomy......

Anonymous said...

would rather the cops went down than any innocent bystanders were hit

Glenn B said...

I just did the math, they fired 16 shots at the bad guy. He was hit 10times. Unless he shot himself a few times, the officers seemingly missed with 6 shots. That means that either some bullets that hit the bad guy went through him and also hit bystanders or that some bullets that missed the bad guy hit multiple bystanders.

I agree, even if only 6 shots missed the bad guy, it was too many. Yet, I cannot fault the officers too much for that but will say they are responsible for those shots. When the adrenalin pumps out in a massive dose, when you are fearful for your life, when the target may be moving, when you are shooting and you are moving, and when the pucker factor takes over, or worse yet when it lets loose and you shit yourself, your shooting ability may not be as good as it is at the range - especially when you add to that those 45 caliber bullets coming your way. In addition, tunnel vision almost always sets in and you have eyes for the the bad guy and almost nothing else until you snap out of it. It takes some time, even if just seconds, it may have been too brief a time in this instance to shake it and thy may not have even seen the bystanders once the SHTF.

I do fault the officers though for hitting anyone with those 6 misses. I fault them because I do not think they properly assessed the situation before acting; in fact I think they reacted and that was a mistake. They maybe should not have been firing at a guy with a crowd behind him, and they knew the crowd was there before the SHTF unless they were totally blind or brain dead. Hell, it was at the Empire Staste Building on a weekday at rush hour in the summer tourist season. So, unless they were convinced that they had no other recourse to protect the crowds they should have withheld fire unless virtually positive they would hit the guy. When I say no other recourse, I mean, for instance, the bad guh was randomly shoting people down all round him and the risk of them hitting a bystander was outweighed by the risk of the bad guy's continued shooting. I think the officers should have taken cover, instead of approaching this guy. I think they should have commanded people to get down, and not fired until they had a clear shot. I will admit, that is saying alot, I do not know if I could do it, it would take more than brass balls - maybe steel balls or balls or fire. I think I would do it though, sure want to think so anyway. Sometimes though we get surprised and react before we take over and act (there is quite a difference). Maybe they diod not get the chance, maybe the bad guy saw the construction worker telling them what he witnessed and the bad guy drew on them before they could properly assess. I would like to know more before condemning them even though I kind of think they screwed up in how they handled it from the start.

Not making excuses for them, just saying shit like that really happens. The thing is I still think they should have realized that firing on this guy was going to result in the likelihood of others being shot because if not brain dead they knew the crowds were there all around. For that, they get a lot of blame and will probably face lawsuits but also likely will be covered by the city.

Medals, yeah they may get them. They may also wind up being fired.

As for a cop, fifty years ago, ending it all with only a couple of shots - you have got to be kidding or badly misinformed. Cops were just as bad (and maybe just as good) at shooting back then as they are now. Back then though, ballistics tests or not, you could rest assured that the bad guy would have been blamed for shooting the bystanders. Another empty .45 magazine would just happen to have been found, the next day or at least hours after the shooting, where it had somehow fallen down a sewer. Otherwise a throw away gun or three would have been found to account for how he had that many extra rounds. That is the way it was that long ago.

All the best,
Glenn B

Oswald Bastable said...

My ten year-olds son shoots a .38 better than that!

Toaster 802 said...

I love how the media and folks are like no biggie. If they had been CCW's instead of thugs in government issued costumes, would they get a pass? No, they frauds would be howling from the rooftops of the danger of untrained gun nuts and charges would be filed and at 8am Monday morning some "Representative" would be sponsoring a bill to take the ability to endanger, er, concealed carry away from citizens, and make sure the "only ones" are the only ones able to carry guns.

The State attorney general held a presser within minutes after the shooting calling for new gun control laws. After it was found out the cops gunned down the innocent victims, a reporter asked her if more laws were still forth coming. She answered, "I'll get back to you on that."

The stench of hypocrisy has the same smell as death. The same kind of Buzzard is attracted to both.

sig94 said...

Well, the shootin' range part of my academy training was 40 years ago and it was two shots, three if you thought the guy was wearing body armor. But you only shot a few times and then assessed, then shoot again if needed. But you never shot unless you had a good sight picture and knew WTF was behind the target.

Yes, body armor has been around for a while, I had to buy my own before the State started buying it for us in '81. Thing is, a lot more cops were getting shot to death when I started (144), like twice as many than there are now (70) - but it has been going up since 2008.

Still, there is absolutely no excuse for shooting by standers because you got all excited. Zip, zilch,nada. Your training is supposed to handle that. Something is wrong here.

Tony Tsquared said...

Alcohol induce logic: Sixteen shots were fired by the cops, 9 bystanders were hit, and 3 went into the idiot w/ the 45. That means that the cops missed with only 4 shots. Sure they hit citizens but at least they hit something - it's not like they didn't hit anything (except with 4 bullets). The cops are not the under trained, inept, trigger happy fools that I thought they were...


Mr. Miracle said...

So, in Bloomburg town, the "professional" law enforcement is the solution, and the potential CCW crowd are the one's that would cause more injuries. I think that was the paradigm. WAS. These cops had never fired their weapon on duty. I am willing to bet that they never took any training past the basic LEO course at the academy. I have a CCW, and I take it seriously. I train, practice, and have taken several courses on what to do, how to do it safely, etc. But, according to Bloomburg and his ilk, I am a danger, and only "professionals" can be trusted with weapons? Hopefully the people of New York will now see this asshat for what he is.

Robert Fowler said...

Unless a cop is a gun guy, they don't fire their weapon except in a emergency or when they have to qualify. And the qualifications are getting so easy a well schooled 10 year old can pass them. Most of the cops I knew when I was a kid, were gun guys. Anymore most of them just look at their duty weapon as something they are forced to carry as a job requirement.

I have read two different statistics about cop shootings. One said you are 5 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a cop than a civilian. The other one was 11 times. YMMV.

Glenn B said...

I am more convinced thatn before that the biggest mistake the two officers made, and that probablky at least indirectly led to them shooting so many times and hitting bystanders, was that they did ot use effective available cover. See the video surveillance of the actual shooting and my assessment at:

All the best,
Glenn B

Shell said...

OK, I wasn't going to be a blog version of a threadmancer but I have to step in here and rebut some of Glenn's postings.

First - the *biggest* mistake those two clowns made was running toward the guy from behind and yelling for him to stop. You can see the other people in the video reacting to their shouts just before the murderer does.

What they should have done - since he was oblivious to their presence before they made it known *and* had no weapon in his hands, which meant they had the drop on him - was tackle his ass *hard*.

Second - "...effective available cover"? Fuck that. Their job is not to find cover, it's to apprehend a man who was just pointed out to them as a murderer, and to do it while showing due regard for the citizenry all around them. If we ever get to see the investigation report on this I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut we find out that the *main* reason so many civilians were hit by stray shots and/or ricochets is one of the cops was busy shooting Cowboy Bob style - one handed - while ducking, covering himself with his arm, and *looking away from his target* to try and find cover.

Complete, total, and utter chickenshit behavior by that cop is what got bystanders hurt, and nothing else. And the City's police commissioner said they did a fine job. Bullshit like that makes my ass draw up.