Owners will be faced with two choices, GOA warns, “Give the ATF your name, Social Security number, address, phone number, email, payment information, FINGERPRINTS, as well as the make, model, and serial number of your firearm – and provide photographic evidence of your compliance OR Face jail time and pay a $250,000 fine.”
Our Story Thus Far
How things got to this point is a case study in the Bureau usurping powers to effectively “legislate” through often contradictory rule changes. Nowhere has this been more apparent than with braces, and ATF’s on again/off again reversals on their “legality.”
-Len
Note also that forced registration of a weapon as a Class III weapon requires notification to the Feds of exactly where and how it is stored, and waives 4th Amendment search warrant protections and allows the Feds to enter at any time to make sure that the weapon is properly secured.
ReplyDeleteJohn in Indy
Only for type 07 FFLs or 02 SOTs, just having a tax stamp on a form 4 does *not* give the ATF any more power or ability to enter property with out a warrent. There is also *nothing* in any of the paperwork that says anything about storage requirements.
DeleteThat being said, I don't know anyone who has stuff on form 1/form 4s who *doesn't* keep that shit locked up like fort Knox, but that's more because the process is so damn annoying and most stuff it applies to is so damn expensive that they don't want to tempt fate.
J. Simmons, see Anon@12:37's comment for a first person account of a search.
DeleteI can't speak to anonymous's story, not knowing them, or being involved whatsoever, but *I* have several class three items on form 4's, and a double handfull of both friends and customers who *also* have a variety of class three stuff in every NFA catagory. (Machine guns, short barrels rifles and shotguns, suppressors, and a pretty wide variety of destructive devices ranging from a customer who has *almost* every thing Cobray ever made, to a friend who has a M20 75mm recoiless rifle.). Out here in AZ class three items are *big* business, and are fairly common, even if most class three owners tend to avoid the normal gun ranges (nothing ruins a good day of shooting like some jackass range master who is a former LEO from some anti gun state losing their shit about "illegal guns" whilst talking out their ass.)
DeleteIn addition to owning several NFA items, I was also friends with a class III type 07/02SOT (Type 07 is a class III dealer, 02 SOT is a manufacturer of both normal and class III items) and worked for them for a bit. I know firsthand what happens during an ATF audit, both from a dealer viewpoint, and (when my friend retired without warning and dumping a pile of shit on his former partner) a normal citizens viewpoint. (The partner let the FFL lapse, and sold off all the dealer sample guns but kept the 'post sample's guns and his own class III items, however the paperwork was completely fucked and it took almost a week to sort it out, the ATF *only* came out after setting up an appointment, and never "just came in") {any machine gun manufactured after may of 1986 is ineligible for civilians, but the cutoff is a *little* less restricted for FFL holders, with the exception of things made after 1986, which are dealer samples that can *only* be made/transferred with LE letterhead requesting said item, or military purchase/T&E requests}
It's a confusing process, that really isn't worth it for most folks, but the amount of misinformation and downright incorrect information out there doesn't help.
It also doesn't help that, I am sure, some ATF field offices do whatever the fuck they want, and not what the law says they can do. There is also the fact that the ATF *loves* to claim they can do things that they can't, and will lie to someone's face/do shit they shouldn't do right up to the point they get told "you are not allowed to do that" at which point 99% of the time they back off. They *love* to use that tactic.
Also, and this is *not* me calling anyone out, as far as the comment from Anon... There are a couple of things in that post that give me pause.
DeleteI will preface this by saying it is entirely probable that details were left out intentionally to protect Anon, but...
First off, I don't know *anyone* who had the ATF show up at their work, who was *not* a FFL themselves. They call first, mostly because it's the easiest way to get a hold of someone and alphabet Bois are *lazy*.
Second the ATF cannot force someone to leave work to just "go check on something" without a warrent, this goes back to them making shit up that they can't do, likewise the comment "we can do this when we feel like it"
Third, and the biggest flag for me personally, Anon claims he sold it back "the next day". One depending on the item in question, that can be a *large* amount of money, a couple examples of the top of my head (local prices for "transferrable" MGs and other items)
A typical Short Barreled Rifle is in the $1,999-$2,999 range,
A typical Short Barreled Shotgun is in the $899-2$2,999 range,
Suppressors can range from $399-$2,000
A *cheap* full auto like a MAC-10 goes for about $8,000-$12,000
A *moderately* expensive MG like a M-16/MP5/AK47 can go for $24,000-$65,000
A *expensive* MG like a M60 or one of the *few* transferrable FNMAG (M240) is gonna be upwards of $100,000
Destructive devices vary even more widely with something like an M203 going for typically $2,250-$2,800, versus a MGL rotary launcher going for $32,000 or various artillery pieces going for better than $50,000. Then each round of ammo ( which didn't include chalk practice rounds, until ATF fuckery, which now are in a legal grey area) needs its own tax stamp and all that entails.
On top of all that, the tax stamp process still needs to happen *even* for a dealer. That means that the dealer still has to wait for the stamp to be processed and approved, even if being a dealer means it's gonna get automatic approval. The shortest wait I have personally heard of was six months, during which time Anon would still have to have possession of the item in question. It's not like a normal gun that you sell and walk out, class three items are *slow* to transfer/sell, and *every single time it's transferred* the $200 tax has to be paid. That means *most* class three dealers *won't* buy Short Barreled guns, or inexpensive suppressors, or inexpensive destructive devices, because that tax *will* eat out of their profits on a used item. The guys who *will* buy those items back? They give prices that would make pawnshops weep in shame.
A personal example, I recently sold my MP5 Short Barreled Rifle to a buddie. I sold the whole kit I built up over the years (MP5 clone $1,998, spare magazines 12 30 rounders $90 each, spare bolt and bolt carrier $635, collapsible 'navy' style stock $699, Surefire weaponlight forend $599, spare trigger pack $425, optic mount $100. All told over $5000.). I initially was going to sell it to a class three dealer for $2,500, but every single one I went to would *not* go over $1000, hell most wouldn't go over $800. One tried to buy the upgraded parts for $650 and leave me with a non functional gun to try to sell afterwards. I ended up selling it to my buddy for about half of what I was into it for, and it is still taking up space in my safe since I cannot legally give it to him until his paperwork comes in. It has been pending for over a year now.
Holy hell, not one but two long winded comments that nobody will take the time to read?
DeleteI read both
DeleteI didn't set out to write a pair of novels, but it is a topic that is something I am interested in, and intimately familiar with, and a topic where one kind of *has* to be slightly pedantic.
DeleteNo sweat, GI.
DeleteMe too, thanks.
DeleteWell I will be taking the braces off my pistols and be replacing the buffer tube with one of the stubby ones.
ReplyDeleteSaw this coming once I realized that the pistol braces were just a work around for a SBR. Come to think of it, I learned that here.
ReplyDeleteYou can always buy an upper and tell the ATF to Fuck off
ReplyDeleteIf a brace changes a pistol into a rifle then I suspect a lot of pistols will get stocks and hidden away.
ReplyDeleteI owned a class 3 weapon for 5-6 weeks. the first time the fuckers from the ATF showed up at my work and asked me about it. I had to leave work and show them the damn thing in my safe. they told me, they can do this any time they "feel if it not secure" bullshit.
ReplyDeletesold the fucking then the next day back to the gun shop I bought it from.
fuck them and their stupid, bullshit rules.
The process IS the punishment…..
DeleteI have cartilage problems so if that means I have to turn in my knee brace I won't have a leg to stand on..
ReplyDeleteI suspect Thorsden pistol stocks just went up in value. Theyre not saying you cant have an AR pistol, but some of the braces are almost indistinguishable from rifle stocks, and it didnt help that a bevy of assholes went out and shot them from the shoulder on their jootube channel. F'in talented assholes aye? Rule one of fight club needs to change to destroy all social media for f'tards that cant keep their mouths shut or their fat face off of some video sites.
ReplyDeleteExcept the ATF issued a letter at one point saying it was fine to shoot them from the shoulder.
DeleteAll registration leads to confiscation. Disassemble, and hope your sherrif believes in his oath. Hope your DA/AG haven't whored themselves out to Soros Jr.
ReplyDeleteDisassembled weapons don’t work
Delete