45,000 gallons of water to put out one EV fire.....
FRANKLIN, Tenn. (WKRN) — An electrical vehicle fire at Nissan Headquarters Tuesday afternoon required several more hours and 45 times more gallons of water to put out than a conventional vehicle fire.
It’s a challenge the Franklin Fire Department warns “all fire departments are struggling with” because lithium-ion battery fires often cannot be extinguished until the battery cell has released its energy.
Thanks to Liberal "save the planet" assholes the electron fueled EV buggies spreading all over the nation it looks like all the fire departments in the country are gonna have to invest in Aqueous Film Forming Foam suppression systems.
My second to last job in 21' was changing out all the AFFF on US bases in Japan to a slightly less dangerous version. That shit is bad news! Eod1sg Ret
the only way to put them out is to submerge them in water fire department's need to have a large dumpster they can fill with water then when the fire is out just haul it to the junkyard where all the electric vehicles belong
These cars should have a few access ports to shove a long nozzle into that would allow firefighters to pump straight into the battery hold. It's clearly a problem, so manufacture a way to deal with it more effectively. It's not That complicated.
Once lithium catches fire, water, foam, etc, won't put it out. Water makes it burn hotter and faster. Anything with water in it, like firefighting foam, does the exact same thing. Everything a lithium battery needs to burn is contained IN the battery, it just needs enough heat to break down the dielectric, and then it's off to the races. Chemistry will not be denied. What the water is actually for is to keep everything around the battery including the road itself from burning as well.
I'm of the opinion that if an EV catches fire, just let it burn itself out. Why aren't the enviro-twinkies raising a ruckus over the 45k gallons of water wasted on this one fire? (I guess all the water saved by low-flush toilets can be used for EV fires).
Yup. And there's actual studies that prove it. The fire goes out quicker, less mess to clean up afterwards, etc.
Faced with an EV fire, do nothing. Make sure the fire doesn't spread, but that's your only real concern. Fire will burn out in a couple hours, which is quicker than if you try to put it out.
This is what the local FD does at the plastics plant I used to work at. They fought the first fire (many years ago) and realized there's no good way to beat it. For the next 2 fires (lightening can be a bitch), they just hosed down the melted plastic to solidify it and make it easier to keep out of the nearby creek.
A couple of years ago my neighbor's barn caught fire and took about a quarter acre of a field with it. I did the math and between 4 engines and 2 water tenders that showed up the most that they could have possibly used to put it out was 8000 gallons of water, and the amount was probably closer to 7000 gallons. Barn and field, 7000 gallons, POS EV 45,000 gallons.
Well, since I retired last year I sold my one ton diesel and got myself a hybrid Escape. No need for the big truck anymore, as I'm not hauling my trailer from job to job anymore. The old lady has an F150, so we still have a truck when we need one (sort of). Gotta say I love the little fucker and I get between 45 and 50 miles to the gallon. It charges itself with a 2.5 liter gas engine and runs any speed I need it to. I got it because my niece had an earlier version and I liked driving it from time to time. I do not like EV's for a lot of reasons, the biggest being no one is doing shit to upgrade the power grid to make the proposition realistic. That, and there just isn't enough raw materials on earth to convert everyone driving a car over to EV. I will say I don't park the car in the garage with her truck and my Harley, though! Eod1sg Ret
...just isn't enough raw materials on earth to convert everyone driving a car over to EV" Who said TPTB want everyone to have an EV? "Walk, you peasant!"
The fire departments in our fire district will protect the perimeter, meaning the don't try to extinguish the EV but make sure anything near it is protected. They will douse the EV to try to keep any flareups to a minimum, but they won't waste all that water trying to put it out.
One of the first things I teach students on the first day of energy policy classes I have taught is how energy density works, and how a battery is a device to store energy at high densities. But at a certain point, when you increase the energy density enough, we don’t call it a battery any more. We call it a bomb. - - Steven Hayward - -
"Jesus wept" A li-on battery fire is *exothermic*, which means it creates more energy than it needs to keep going. *A lot more energy.* Theoretically, if you were able to pick up that car and put it in a big dunk tank you might control the fire. Maybe. You'll have pockets of boiling water till everything gets calmed down. It might cheerfully start back up when you pull it out of the water. So now you have thousands of chemical slurry going into the storm drains, and God only knows what's in there.
Lithium reacts with water. You put that burning battery in a dunk tank and you will have a steam explosion that sprays burning lithium chunks all over the landscape, and possibly a secondary explosion when the hydrogen generated burns...
That will just provide a blanket to hold the heat in, until it builds up so hot that it bursts out, one way or another - probably through the pavement and melting the dirt underneath to glass, but it could come disastrously through the top or a side. A battery fire needs no oxygen, it already has both sides of the reaction in the battery.
Water removes heat. It also provides material for other reactions, and spreads whatever nasty compounds were released or created by the fire around, but it does limit the fire and heat damage spreading to everything near by.
The average American family of four uses 12,000 gallons of water a month. One tesla fire consumed more water than a family of four uses in almost four months.
Just a quick firefighter's response to bogsidebunny - AFFF wouldn't be the tool to use on an electric car battery fire - it's designed to extinguish fire in stationary pools of flammable liquids by sealing off access to oxygen. Lithium batteries that are on fire produce their own oxygen - the only way that we currently have to extinguish these fires is by cooling the battery cells enough that the thermal runaway process ceases. These things are a problem - and so far I haven't heard anything about this issue that makes me feel good. The "let it burn" approach always sounds attractive - unless it's your car, garage, house or adjacent field that catches fire because the electric car next to it is burning for 4 or 5 hours. The auto industry needs a better solution. Anyone in favor of internal combustion engines? Right now, I think these electric vehicles are just fanciful, dangerous novelties - and the public is serving as the lab rats.
Too, the lithium batteries create a very hot fire and great volumes of thick noxious smoke. An added bonus is this happens quite rapidly. Perhaps mercifully, one one burn to death before succumbing to the smoke.
Lithium is an alkali metal (over there on the left of the periodic chart of elements with the alkalis) all of which react violently with water. It melts at 375 degrees F which is about where you put the oven for biscuits. A great deal of my career was spent working with sodium, another of the alkali metals. The best agent for extinguishing these fires is a high silica content sand, but any dry sand will do. Basically what happens is the heat of the fire melts the sand to a glass which smothers the fire. It also needs to be applied with care from the outer perimeter of the fire to the center, taking care not to splatter the LI, Na, etc., everywhere. Been there, done that. Unfortunately, fire departments don't have a dump truck of dry sand available, along with an excavator or crane to apply it. So, they do what a lot of us do; work with what they got. Applying water to a lithium fire only provides something for the lithium to react with until all of it is reacted. The end result is lithium hydroxide (LiOH) which is a strong caustic, and another problem to deal with. It isn't a pretty picture.
Head pastor at my wife’s church is on the local volunteer fire department. They just had a training session dealing with EV/hybrid fires. Apparently the smoke and fumes are also quite toxic… But Hey! We’re saving the planet! Coelacanth
And yet just look at all the innocuous items that get BANNED because one person dies (generally of their own stupidity), damage is done, etc. Yet hundreds of people are dying in EV bicycle-related fires, EV car-related fires in homes, apartment buildings, etc. not to mention the massive burden on fire services and clean water supplies (and nobody ever talks of what happens to the runoff filled with toxic lithium salts), and NOTHING IS DONE. I wonder if government is being paid to look the other way or something while people die? Nah, that would NEVER happen in the US. LOL
As a retired firefighter, I can say that it was a point of pride to be able to put out a vehicle fire using less than half a tank of water. The tanks on our engines had a 1,000 or 1,500 gallon capacity. If you used the entire tank and needed to catch a hydrant, you would hear no end of it.
Thanks to Liberal "save the planet" assholes the electron fueled EV buggies spreading all over the nation it looks like all the fire departments in the country are gonna have to invest in Aqueous Film Forming Foam suppression systems.
ReplyDeleteMy second to last job in 21' was changing out all the AFFF on US bases in Japan to a slightly less dangerous version. That shit is bad news! Eod1sg Ret
DeleteWhy are you so concerned with what someone else drives?
DeleteSounds a little bit like envy.
It would be hard to find a dept. that DOESN’T have AFFF systems.
DeleteNot envious at all. We just like watching self righteous assholes eat shit.
DeleteJust saving the planet, 45,000 gallons at a time.
ReplyDeletethe only way to put them out is to submerge them in water
ReplyDeletefire department's need to have a large dumpster they can fill with water then when the fire is out just haul it to the junkyard where all the electric vehicles belong
These cars should have a few access ports to shove a long nozzle into that would allow firefighters to pump straight into the battery hold. It's clearly a problem, so manufacture a way to deal with it more effectively. It's not That complicated.
ReplyDeleteOnce lithium catches fire, water, foam, etc, won't put it out. Water makes it burn hotter and faster. Anything with water in it, like firefighting foam, does the exact same thing. Everything a lithium battery needs to burn is contained IN the battery, it just needs enough heat to break down the dielectric, and then it's off to the races. Chemistry will not be denied. What the water is actually for is to keep everything around the battery including the road itself from burning as well.
DeletePrecaution against EV fire-don't buy one
ReplyDeleteDamn, that means I'll probably have to cancel my two RIVIAN orders.
DeleteI'm of the opinion that if an EV catches fire, just let it burn itself out. Why aren't the enviro-twinkies raising a ruckus over the 45k gallons of water wasted on this one fire? (I guess all the water saved by low-flush toilets can be used for EV fires).
ReplyDeleteYup. And there's actual studies that prove it. The fire goes out quicker, less mess to clean up afterwards, etc.
DeleteFaced with an EV fire, do nothing. Make sure the fire doesn't spread, but that's your only real concern. Fire will burn out in a couple hours, which is quicker than if you try to put it out.
Still have the toxic smoke problem though!
Oh - forgot to sign that one.
DeleteJohn G
This is what the local FD does at the plastics plant I used to work at. They fought the first fire (many years ago) and realized there's no good way to beat it. For the next 2 fires (lightening can be a bitch), they just hosed down the melted plastic to solidify it and make it easier to keep out of the nearby creek.
DeleteA couple of years ago my neighbor's barn caught fire and took about a quarter acre of a field with it. I did the math and between 4 engines and 2 water tenders that showed up the most that they could have possibly used to put it out was 8000 gallons of water, and the amount was probably closer to 7000 gallons.
ReplyDeleteBarn and field, 7000 gallons, POS EV 45,000 gallons.
Well, since I retired last year I sold my one ton diesel and got myself a hybrid Escape. No need for the big truck anymore, as I'm not hauling my trailer from job to job anymore. The old lady has an F150, so we still have a truck when we need one (sort of). Gotta say I love the little fucker and I get between 45 and 50 miles to the gallon. It charges itself with a 2.5 liter gas engine and runs any speed I need it to. I got it because my niece had an earlier version and I liked driving it from time to time. I do not like EV's for a lot of reasons, the biggest being no one is doing shit to upgrade the power grid to make the proposition realistic. That, and there just isn't enough raw materials on earth to convert everyone driving a car over to EV. I will say I don't park the car in the garage with her truck and my Harley, though! Eod1sg Ret
ReplyDelete...just isn't enough raw materials on earth to convert everyone driving a car over to EV"
DeleteWho said TPTB want everyone to have an EV?
"Walk, you peasant!"
The fire departments in our fire district will protect the perimeter, meaning the don't try to extinguish the EV but make sure anything near it is protected. They will douse the EV to try to keep any flareups to a minimum, but they won't waste all that water trying to put it out.
ReplyDeleteOne of the first things I teach students on the first day of energy policy classes I have taught is how energy density works, and how a battery is a device to store energy at high densities. But at a certain point, when you increase the energy density enough, we don’t call it a battery any more. We call it a bomb. - - Steven Hayward - -
ReplyDelete"Jesus wept"
ReplyDeleteA li-on battery fire is *exothermic*, which means it creates more energy than it needs to keep going. *A lot more energy.* Theoretically, if you were able to pick up that car and put it in a big dunk tank you might control the fire. Maybe. You'll have pockets of boiling water till everything gets calmed down. It might cheerfully start back up when you pull it out of the water. So now you have thousands of chemical slurry going into the storm drains, and God only knows what's in there.
Lithium reacts with water. You put that burning battery in a dunk tank and you will have a steam explosion that sprays burning lithium chunks all over the landscape, and possibly a secondary explosion when the hydrogen generated burns...
DeleteIt'll be interesting when insurance companies refuse to provide coverage for the EV's.
ReplyDeleteEV = Extra Volatile.
- WDS
Try dumping wet cement or a truckload of sand on it.
ReplyDeleteThat will just provide a blanket to hold the heat in, until it builds up so hot that it bursts out, one way or another - probably through the pavement and melting the dirt underneath to glass, but it could come disastrously through the top or a side. A battery fire needs no oxygen, it already has both sides of the reaction in the battery.
DeleteWater removes heat. It also provides material for other reactions, and spreads whatever nasty compounds were released or created by the fire around, but it does limit the fire and heat damage spreading to everything near by.
The average American family of four uses 12,000 gallons of water a month. One tesla fire consumed more water than a family of four uses in almost four months.
ReplyDeleteSince we evidently don't have enough flashpoints with all the summer fires already...
ReplyDeleteCC
Just a quick firefighter's response to bogsidebunny - AFFF wouldn't be the tool to use on an electric car battery fire - it's designed to extinguish fire in stationary pools of flammable liquids by sealing off access to oxygen. Lithium batteries that are on fire produce their own oxygen - the only way that we currently have to extinguish these fires is by cooling the battery cells enough that the thermal runaway process ceases. These things are a problem - and so far I haven't heard anything about this issue that makes me feel good. The "let it burn" approach always sounds attractive - unless it's your car, garage, house or adjacent field that catches fire because the electric car next to it is burning for 4 or 5 hours. The auto industry needs a better solution. Anyone in favor of internal combustion engines? Right now, I think these electric vehicles are just fanciful, dangerous novelties - and the public is serving as the lab rats.
ReplyDeleteToo, the lithium batteries create a very hot fire and great volumes of thick noxious smoke. An added bonus is this happens quite rapidly.
ReplyDeletePerhaps mercifully, one one burn to death before succumbing to the smoke.
When Insurance companies start jacking up rates and canceling homeowner policies the problem will be solved.
ReplyDeleteJpaul
Lithium is an alkali metal (over there on the left of the periodic chart of elements with the alkalis) all of which react violently with water. It melts at 375 degrees F which is about where you put the oven for biscuits. A great deal of my career was spent working with sodium, another of the alkali metals. The best agent for extinguishing these fires is a high silica content sand, but any dry sand will do. Basically what happens is the heat of the fire melts the sand to a glass which smothers the fire. It also needs to be applied with care from the outer perimeter of the fire to the center, taking care not to splatter the LI, Na, etc., everywhere. Been there, done that. Unfortunately, fire departments don't have a dump truck of dry sand available, along with an excavator or crane to apply it. So, they do what a lot of us do; work with what they got. Applying water to a lithium fire only provides something for the lithium to react with until all of it is reacted. The end result is lithium hydroxide (LiOH) which is a strong caustic, and another problem to deal with. It isn't a pretty picture.
ReplyDeleteHead pastor at my wife’s church is on the local volunteer fire department. They just had a training session dealing with EV/hybrid fires. Apparently the smoke and fumes are also quite toxic…
ReplyDeleteBut Hey! We’re saving the planet!
Coelacanth
And yet just look at all the innocuous items that get BANNED because one person dies (generally of their own stupidity), damage is done, etc. Yet hundreds of people are dying in EV bicycle-related fires, EV car-related fires in homes, apartment buildings, etc. not to mention the massive burden on fire services and clean water supplies (and nobody ever talks of what happens to the runoff filled with toxic lithium salts), and NOTHING IS DONE. I wonder if government is being paid to look the other way or something while people die? Nah, that would NEVER happen in the US. LOL
ReplyDeleteAs a retired firefighter, I can say that it was a point of pride to be able to put out a vehicle fire using less than half a tank of water. The tanks on our engines had a 1,000 or 1,500 gallon capacity. If you used the entire tank and needed to catch a hydrant, you would hear no end of it.
ReplyDeleteThese guys seems to have a good idea about EV car fires.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bridgehill.com/fire-blankets/
No, I'm not affiliated with the company.